Basic manners: why have they changed so drastically? Talk amongst yourselves.

Tipnut passed along this link yesterday; basic etiquette lassons from the 1950's:

12 Rules of Etiquette For Children: Timeless Wisdom Collection

I was thoroughly shocked. Both by how old-fashioned some of the suggestions seemed (asking children to rise when an elder enters the room), and by how little most of today's little ones are taught the finer points of etiquette.

I've often thought about how, as a child, I was taught to call every adult by the title "Mr." or "Mrs." I was, in fact uncomfortable when an adult suggested I use his or her first name. Today, I'm the adult, and I feel uncomfortable when a child calls me "Mrs. Dornfest." Then again, it has only happened once.

How do manners change so drastically in a single generation? Should we teach our children more formal manners? Do you think parenting would be easier if basic etiquette were a standard part of the agenda?

Thank you, Tipnut, for the link. I can't wait to hear what folks have to say about this.

Comments

[Dan]

A generation is between 15 and 20 years, so advice from the 1950s is somewhere between two and three generations ago, not one.

We all teach our children the finer points of etiquette, its just that the rules we teach have changed in the last 60 years ago. Your children will be pretty maladjusted in the 2010s and 20s if you train them to behave like upper class children of the 1950s. The world has changed and become less formal since the 50s. Watch the TV series MadMen for a vivid reminder of this. I sure wouldn't trade the less formal etiquette we have now for a world where pregnant mothers smoke and drink and are routinely treated as less than human by men.

Politeness and concern for others are excellent traits to instill in our children, but they aren't the same thing as formality.

Dan

[Jill in Atlanta]

When I first moved to the US South, I was shocked to find that manners DO still exist. Even many of my friends children answer me "Yes Ma'am/No thank you Ma'am". Mine are the social deviants "um,sure/nah".

I don't think standing for adults is a behavior that we should bother trying to get back. Interrupting, saying "excuse me" and being more overall polite to others-- those I think we, as parents, have allowed to lapse. I think the 'kids as our friends' attitude these days is a huge part of it. Instead of respecting parents, parents are friends to discuss/argue rules. Parents who say their greatest hope for their children is that they be "happy" are missing the point. If we make them responsible and inquisitive, they will make themselves happy.

[Marcy]

The standing thing seems a bit much, but my daughter will be going to a Day School where, upon reading the student handbook, I see that it is required. When we visited their open houses, the children were all friendly and polite. Not an automaton in sight.

Ma'am and Sir are required by me and my husband. I have only been mocked in one region of the country for saying Ma'am and Sir. I don't think that having impeccable manners will ever go out of style in the professional world.

It's been quite easy to teach our almost three year old. When we call her name and she says, "What?" (with the biting tone of a teenager,) we simply say, "Yes, Ma'am/Sir" and she repeats it. It worked with "Please" and "Thank You."

I'd rather have my child be "overly polite" than the alternative.

[Amy Michelle T.]

Actually I was surprise to find that the list was not as shocking as I thought it would be.

1, 4, 8, and 9 are all expected practices in our household.

2, 7, 12 are practiced for the most part, but not required.

I'm thankful 3 has gone out of style because I want my children to know that they are worthy of starting conversations with adults as long as it's a respectful conversation.

To me, 5 is kind of a situational thing. I mean, I would probably stand when a visitor stands, but only if the person where leaving or switching rooms. If they were getting up to go to the restroom or something I am not going to stand (mostly because I don't want them thinking I'm going to try to go with them!).

6 actually bothers me because I had parents who seemed to use me as their slave at times. I didn't bring my children in this world to dote on me. Though, I do expect my children to wait on themselves when they are of the age that they can do the task at hand.

10 ‘kind of’ works today if you alter the wording a bit. Most of us expect a child to use an indoor voice when indoors. I don't know if it denotes refinement, but it is certainly respectful. And expected of them.

And my least favorite.. 11. As the oldest of five I hated giving way to my younger siblings simply because it was easier on them as well as my parents. But as I hope to have multiple children I can see why this rule would've been invoked. It's really another situational rule that parents today should invoke when necessary, but not all the time.

[tulip]

I have to say I wasn't super surprised by the list. What I find interesting is that my child is polite enough that people remark on it. As Jill noted, it seems that in the South people are more conditioned to the whole kids being polite, though frankly I don't notice a lot of polite kids around!
We started before my daughter could really talk with the please/thank you and you should have heard people! "She can't understand that" blah blah. I kind of feel like people try to start too late with kids now. How is a 4 year old all of a sudden supposed to be polite when you have never asked them to be before?
I agree with Amy on the #3. I feel like kids should be treated with respect and politeness from us as well! Everyone deserves a voice in the conversation and as long as they don't interrupt I feel fine with them as conversationalists.
I think common sense and thoughtfulness of others goes a long way to polite behavior. It's a good check on MY behavior when I want to make sure I'm practicing what I preach!

[mom, again]

Yes, certainly, this has been a more than 1 generational change. Through the years since my first round of parenting began (1984) I've read various theories on why. One was that working mothers don't spend all day long with their kids, so don't spend large amounts of time correcting their kids behavior. Having been a working mom, I know there is some validity to that when I compare my mother's interactions with us vs. my more limited interactions with my daughters. Mom did have more time to catch us doing well, or not, and praise or correct. She had an entire 3rd meal with us at which she could instill good table manners, for example.

As an American who grew up, and raised up two children, in the south, I can also tell you that although we may uphold traditional good manners more than elsewhere in the U.S., things have slipped there as well. My first realization of this was at a school potluck. I can recall the dessert table being off limits until everyone had gone through the supper line, and even then, a few parents or teacher stood by to enforce the limited quantity of sweets per child. I was shocked when, at our first such meeting at my daughters' school, a number of children rushed the dessert table first, took dinner plates full, and then returned for more. And nobody said anything. Their parents went through the supper line, ate their dinner and seemed to be oblivious to their children's actions. My daughters never got any sweets because I made them go through the line with me, and nothing was left, ever, when they had finished their supper.

[Kai]

The list isn't surprising, but I feel there is a distinct difference between etiquette and manners. My daughter is very well-mannered for a two-year-old -- she knows to say please and thank you, asks to be excused from the table (thank you Signing Time!), and knows to be respectful of other people when we're eating in a restaurant or in another public place. Does she call my friends by their last name? No. Not unless they request it. While later in life we may decide she needs a bit more etiquette, I think that instilling respect for other human beings and basic courtesy is far more important... and all too often there are those who are extremely well-versed in etiquette but have little respect or courtesy for others.

[Lisa]

I have to agree with tulip. My child is 2 and please and Yes/no Ma'am. We are working on Yes/no sir (everyone is a Ma'am at this point) and thank you. I have had many comment that he is too young for such behavior, but I think it's always best to start teaching the behavior you expect from the beginning instead of waking up one morning and suddenly having higher expectations. That, in my opinion, is really confusing for a child.

[iMommy]

I'm only 23 - hardly from a drastically different generation than the one that I am raising now, in terms of manners/technology - but I believe that children need to be taught manners and formality.

The fact is, if my daughter learns to say No, Thank You and Yes, Ma'am and No, Sir and Excuse Me and that she should default to Mrs/Mr So & So, she can always drop the formality if the situation is more casual. But if you only teach your child casual or no manners... well, you're effed if you need to be somewhere and you'd really like your kid to make a good impression.

Better to learn it all, learn it well, and know when it is appropriate. My mother taught me to say yes, ma'am and also how to swear like a sailor. The most important thing she taught me, however, was WHEN to do both, and why it was important to pay attention to the situation.

[shirky]

The specific ways we show respect and care can change totally but the underlying reasons will remain the same. Just think of things like shaking hands vs. bowing--both are 'polite greetings' in their contexts but they look different. Kindness and empathy are universal but calling people "ma'am" is not common in my region and not necessary around here to qualify as "polite". Please & Thank you are big for me--so much that my child's first words and sign were Thank You--but in my mother in law's culture, they are considered too formal for home use. So with any luck we can focus on what's underneath and then teach him to be flexible with the symbols of respect, according to context.

[Jen]

You know, the only adults our daughter is allowed to call by their first names are our absolute closest friends, and that's mostly b/c she usually forgets the "auntie" and "uncle." Adults are "Ms, Mr. or Mrs", or whatever family title is appropriate. She uses Please and Thank you without prompting, and has recently started reminding ME to say "excuse me" when I burp. She knows all stranger women are "Mam" and all stranger men are "Sir." She's 2 1/2 years old.

Like other rules and limits, teaching basic manners, especially ones related to greeting and speaking with people, are things children thrive on for learning self-discipline.

[LisaS]

I'm another Southerner, and I was raised with rules very similar to those listed.

Despite living north of the Mason-Dixon, I'm trying to raise my children with similar codes. Please, thank you, excuse me, ma'am, sir, calling adults Mr. & Mrs. unless they permit otherwise ... all these things are expected, as is treating guests like guests, saying nothing if there is nothing nice to say, and being quiet in adult conversation. I have to say that sometimes I definitely feel the culture around me working against the effort, but I'm stubborn.

In my view, good manners are about three things:
1. learning self control.
2. establishing rules of conduct so everyone is treated fairly and appropriately
3. Paying honor and respect to the people you're around, even sales clerks and service people.

[jamie]

We have four rules:

1. Please.
2. Thank you.
3. Answer questions when adults ask them.
4. Look adults in the eye when answering.

Also, we rehearse on the way to see friends. "We're going to see Jane and Jon. They're going to ask you about camp. You're going to answer politely."

Sometimes it works.

[Jim]

I don't think we are as formal as this list, but there is an absolute expectation of general good manners in our house.

What it is interesting to me is the fact that people are surprised when our son says "Please" and "Thank You" unbidden by us. They often say things like "I wish my kids would do that" or "My kids would never do that."

I disagree.

They would if you expected it of them.

Kids rise to expectations and though we have a ways to go before we would have perfectly executed good manners in our home. Good manners are an expectation and we'll definitely get there.

[mama2etc]

My house rules:

Please, Thank You and Excuse Me

Greet everyone when you arrive and say goodbye when you leave.

Say goodnight and good morning the same way.

Address all adults as Mrs/Ms/Mr unless they tell you otherwise.

Remove your hat indoors (it's amazing to me how little this is practiced).

After practice, thank every one of your coaches for their time.

Hold the door for anyone with a small child, the elderly or anyone else who looks like they could use a little help.

Always offer help if you can. I there is a way you can make someone's life easier, do it.

Say excuse me when you must walk through someone's line of sight (in the movie rental store, for example).

There are more, but these are all I can think of right now. My children often get stuck holding the door as a stream of people walks through, but just as often then have made someone's day as they offer to dispose of their tray at McDonald's or take their cart to the corral.

As tulip noted, it more surprising to me that people notice that my children are polite enough to remark on it. They should be the norm, not the exception.

[Christi]

I think part of the issue has to do with if the rules are enforced or reinforced. I know that both my grandparents and parents wouldn't hesitate to resort to spanking or other sorts of (now largely considered not-a-great-idea) punishments to enforce these behaviors. But for those of us who rely on modeling the behaviors we want kids to emulate, correcting and teaching repeatedly, resorting to time outs when necessary...well, I don't know about everyone, but I'm tired, and I don't think my kids have mastered these skills and that makes me sad. But at the same time, they are free to think and speak their own ideas without fear of physical reprisal, which is (probably? usually?) a good thing. :-)

[Dana]

With a 17 month old...we aren't concentrating so much on making rules or correcting behavior...but we are focused on modeling good behavior. So while my husband and I might not have had the best table manners before the baby, we are making an effort in front of her...and it seems to be paying off, she knows "tank ew" and "eazzz"(thank you and please). She doesn't always use them properly...but at least it's getting in there.

We call adults/daycare/family Mr. or Ms. First Name. It's still respectful, not as formal, and first names are generally easier to say and remember than last names.

[dot]

We are raising our 3 year old with all the usual please/thankyou/sir/ma'am stuff, and he does pretty well with that. We're working on 'Excuse Me' when he wants to get someone's attention right now, and that's going well.

Maybe it's a southern thing as well, but we teach him to say 'Miss Holly', 'Mr. Clay', etc for adults like friends/neighbors, rather than addressing by their last name. Saying Mr. Hooper or Mrs. Brady just seems weird :)

[Ki]

I'm not so sure about the details manners (call and adult by their title, stand when a lady comes to the table, or when an adult enters the room), but I do think it's vital to teach them courtesy (please, thank you, excuse me) and to teach them to be kind.

[John M.]

calling adults by Mr. and Mrs. is an east coast/west coast thing. When I grew up in California all the adults wanted to be called by their first names. When I moved to Virginia we addressed all adults as Mr. or Mrs. so and so.

[W. Mark Whitlock]

Thanks for posting this. We are in the process of launching four children to adulthood. Our kids are 17, 14, 11, and 5. Over the years, we've struggled with manners and posture, interrupting conversations, etc. We've found great help through the work of June Moore. I first heard of her at www.familylife.com. I love the way she looks at manners--it's thinking about the other person first. Her material has also helped ME be a better salesman and marketing professional. I do a better job remembering names (something I'm terrible at) and "working a room" (something I've always dreaded). I can now greet people with confidence.

Our oldest has started interviewing for college scholarships. I'm seeing the benefits of what we learned as a family first hand.

I commend her work to you. Her website is http://www.bhpublishinggroup.com/manners/aboutjune.asp

(I am not affiliated with B&H or getting paid to do this... An honest endorsement)

[Leah]

Those work for me! My two little sons are expected to behave pretty darn close to those expectations. It's always a work in progress, but...

[RLR]

We, too, are in the South - and even here, folks often comment on my kids' manners. My son is 4.5, my daughter is 2. We start with please and thank you early on, work on excuse me when they start to join (interrupt) conversations. We thank everyone from the people at the post office when we buy stamps to each other when we are at home. We use titles with a first name for close friends, and use titles and last names for other adults (church, preschool, etc).
I never imagined this would be the exception, until I noticed that people still commented on my 4 year old using polite words. At 2 years old, folks probably think it's cute, but at 4, I think it should be expected.

[STL Mom]

I've been working on "please" and "thank you" since my kids learned to talk. Now they are 5 and 8, and we're still working on it -- I have to remind them at least 80% of the time. I feel like a broken record saying, "What do you say when you want something?" and "Use your silverware, not your fingers!" and "No feet on the table!" all day long, every day. I would love to think that my kids have good manners, but I'm fearful that when I'm not around they are little wild things.

[GoodSandwich]

Except for the not-starting-conversations rule (which has its place at times), it seems like a pretty nice list -- being attentive to guests and family members, doing for yourself and offering to help others. The ability to choose to be polite (not subservient) actually serves kids well I think -- it makes adults notice them with positive regard. I think this opens doors for children.